Very interesting (and horrifying) post, thanks so much. I was wondering if (and if not, why not) any secret services have ever used such compounds to poison enemies or captives (mk ultra aside). Russia has an ongoing poisoning program with radioactive polonium that killed Litvinenko, Skripal and Navalny nearly died of an agent called Novichok. And the Russians for sure arent alone here, thinking about failed American attempts to poison Fidel Castro.
Not expecting a definite answer of course (and I hope I am not giving anyone nee ideas ;-)) but that would make a lot of sense, wouldn't be hard to manufacture for a government or to dose a target...
A number of people have suggested possibly military/secret service uses for this, but I've no idea if it's been tested/applied in any way. There are plenty of more efficient poisons to kill someone with if that's the plan!
Killing yes, torturing tho..? When I think about Navalny, Skripal and Litvinenko, not only death but also the cruelty seems to be the point.
Is there a trip killer for salvia or the named compounds? Given they act differently than classic psychedlics, I wonder if anti-psychotics or benzos would work as they do with say LSD.
Thanks again for your postings, it's always a pleasure to read your texts!
I'm confused on the 3 day thing; presumeably covalently bound agonists are going to be destroyed when the receptor is internalized, degraded, and replaced. Is KOR turned over that slowly? Are the neurons returning the same covalently bound receptor to the synapse for three whole days, taking a % to the proteosome each time they get to the surface?
I guess my mental model for drugs that would have an effect for that long would focus on ones that evade metobolic destruction or take time to get to the brain. Many benzos fall into this category, prozac takes a long time to be eliminated, the list of commercial phamecuticals is pretty long. The Edgewood Arsenal experiments dabbled quite a bit in exploring substances that stick around in the body forever. In the psychoactive space, I think of 2CB/DOB/Dragonfly and what slowing down metabolism can do to the duration of activity.
The 3 days trip is just a guess, as I mention in the post. We don't know until someone tries it in humans. But the irreversible agonist seems to elicit internalisation much less than salvinorin A/B. There's more than one route back to the membrane after internalisation, so it would also perhaps depend on the proportion of receptors that go down the lysosome and thus degradation route. Again, all speculation until someone tries it. It might not even be psychedelic in humans. We just don't know.
I've heard rumors of Shulgin working on thiocyanate 5HT2A agonists in an attempt at creating covalently bound agonists prior to the end of his working time. I don't remember what cys residudes are in the binding pocket, but I find it super unlikely that nobody tasted any of that, if it actually bound. It's not KOR, but I would be curious about the kinetics and duration of stuff like that.
I think my fear outweighs my curiosity when it comes to salvia... Jesus Christ. Fascinating though! Two common things I hear from salvia trip reports are (like you mentioned) experiences of other lives, and experiences of being inanimate objects, like rocks. I have no idea what the range of metaphysical implications of these experiences could be, but I think it must be more than just “drugs make us think weird stuff”.
Hopefully we will investigate these experiences scientifically one day. Maybe not RB-64 though... No theory of consciousness is complete without taking these kinds of psychedelic states into consideration.
He didn't say he returned to his childhood in 1953, but that he simply found himself in 1953 and could remember "his" childhood, etc. In other words, it wasn't "his" childhood at all, but the childhood of whoever he became during the trip he was remembering -- He entered an entirely different life and became an entirely different person with an entirely different life history -- which makes it all the more horrifying.
Very interesting (and horrifying) post, thanks so much. I was wondering if (and if not, why not) any secret services have ever used such compounds to poison enemies or captives (mk ultra aside). Russia has an ongoing poisoning program with radioactive polonium that killed Litvinenko, Skripal and Navalny nearly died of an agent called Novichok. And the Russians for sure arent alone here, thinking about failed American attempts to poison Fidel Castro.
Not expecting a definite answer of course (and I hope I am not giving anyone nee ideas ;-)) but that would make a lot of sense, wouldn't be hard to manufacture for a government or to dose a target...
A number of people have suggested possibly military/secret service uses for this, but I've no idea if it's been tested/applied in any way. There are plenty of more efficient poisons to kill someone with if that's the plan!
Killing yes, torturing tho..? When I think about Navalny, Skripal and Litvinenko, not only death but also the cruelty seems to be the point.
Is there a trip killer for salvia or the named compounds? Given they act differently than classic psychedlics, I wonder if anti-psychotics or benzos would work as they do with say LSD.
Thanks again for your postings, it's always a pleasure to read your texts!
I'm confused on the 3 day thing; presumeably covalently bound agonists are going to be destroyed when the receptor is internalized, degraded, and replaced. Is KOR turned over that slowly? Are the neurons returning the same covalently bound receptor to the synapse for three whole days, taking a % to the proteosome each time they get to the surface?
I guess my mental model for drugs that would have an effect for that long would focus on ones that evade metobolic destruction or take time to get to the brain. Many benzos fall into this category, prozac takes a long time to be eliminated, the list of commercial phamecuticals is pretty long. The Edgewood Arsenal experiments dabbled quite a bit in exploring substances that stick around in the body forever. In the psychoactive space, I think of 2CB/DOB/Dragonfly and what slowing down metabolism can do to the duration of activity.
The 3 days trip is just a guess, as I mention in the post. We don't know until someone tries it in humans. But the irreversible agonist seems to elicit internalisation much less than salvinorin A/B. There's more than one route back to the membrane after internalisation, so it would also perhaps depend on the proportion of receptors that go down the lysosome and thus degradation route. Again, all speculation until someone tries it. It might not even be psychedelic in humans. We just don't know.
I've heard rumors of Shulgin working on thiocyanate 5HT2A agonists in an attempt at creating covalently bound agonists prior to the end of his working time. I don't remember what cys residudes are in the binding pocket, but I find it super unlikely that nobody tasted any of that, if it actually bound. It's not KOR, but I would be curious about the kinetics and duration of stuff like that.
I think my fear outweighs my curiosity when it comes to salvia... Jesus Christ. Fascinating though! Two common things I hear from salvia trip reports are (like you mentioned) experiences of other lives, and experiences of being inanimate objects, like rocks. I have no idea what the range of metaphysical implications of these experiences could be, but I think it must be more than just “drugs make us think weird stuff”.
Hopefully we will investigate these experiences scientifically one day. Maybe not RB-64 though... No theory of consciousness is complete without taking these kinds of psychedelic states into consideration.
He didn't say he returned to his childhood in 1953, but that he simply found himself in 1953 and could remember "his" childhood, etc. In other words, it wasn't "his" childhood at all, but the childhood of whoever he became during the trip he was remembering -- He entered an entirely different life and became an entirely different person with an entirely different life history -- which makes it all the more horrifying.