While I agree with you most of this nomenclature-based gatekeeping is ridiculous, I'm not sure your biological metrics for psychedelics have enough discriminant validity.
If you give SSRIs to "healthy" volunteers, acutely, we see the same changes: Decreased within-DMN rsFC (Van Wingen et al., 2014) and reduced alpha (Dumont, De Visser, Cohen, & Van Gerven, 2005). I'm sure you're aware of the criticisms surrounding Carhart-Harris et al. in their global connectivity analysis to differentiate Lexapro from psilocybin responses...so that may not be of much use either unless repeated under more rigorous settings.
One might undoubtedly argue then, clearly SSRIs can be differentiated by subjective inventories..but I would suggest that places us right back in the pornography realm. To me, the only value in having this masturbatory nomenclature exercise is to enhance descriptive validity of biological function for these substances.
I don't think alpha and DMN approach antibiotics in that regard.
You're correct, which is why we need both neuroimaging *and* subjective rating scales -- I'm agree we're not quite there yet with either in reliably discriminating between psychedelics and other psychoactives, but this is clearly (imo) the direction we should be heading and I believe we'll get there. This "this nomenclature-based gatekeeping" is indeed ridiculous and a distraction, if not an active hinderance.
I guess we could ask, given both sets of neuroimaging data and subjective rating scale data, could you differentiate between a psychedelic and any other psychoactive (given the same data)? I reckon you could, even now.
Psychedelic is about effects, not about a way to achieve those effects. And there are many ways - via 5-HT2A, via NMDA, via Kappa-Opioid, via some obscure ways (cannabis), and even via meditation/breathing practices.
As a Theological Major, and simple everlasting love for Psychedelic/ Entheogenic/ Magical - Insightful and Sacred Substances... it is easy to value the definitions of each...
When looking into the Noosphere/of Google... it initially plops me at a wiki...
"What is the meaning of the word psychedelic?
A psychedelic experience is characterized by the striking perception of aspects of one's mind previously unknown, or by the creative exuberance of the mind liberated from its ostensibly ordinary fetters."
Love that one!
En Theo Gen - In/Within - [Ancient Greek word (θεός)] Divinity - To Generate/Create... under this thought, it simply implies a spiritual experience. Transcendent and Greater then the sum of the parts.
When one views the medicine as a precious teacher/ they are well on their way to have the secrets of mysticism laid out before them... right up until the ego is dissolved into the One/ and Samadhi/Sahasrara is realized... Satori/ our sense of universal consciousness, wisdom, unity and self-knowledge are being experienced... then you descend, and cannot retain all of the realizations... for the physical body cannot contain the infinite. As you begin to reassimilate into the finite body/mind duality, you drift out of.the all One - one-electron universe / holons - interdependent coexistence - ouroboros / Star Dust to Quazars to grains of sand... the GDF family hit the essence in Truckin'
"Sometimes the lights all shinin on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been."
"The only thing there is to say
Every silver lining's got a
Touch of grey"
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world"
"Nothin' shakin' on shakedown street, used to be the heart of town
Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart, you just gotta poke around
You think you've seen this town clear through (well, well, well, you can never tell)
Nothin' here that could int'rest you (well, well, well, you can never tell)
It's not because you missed out on the thing that we had to start
Maybe you had too much too fast (maybe you had too much too fast)"
Simply defining a drug as a mind altering substance, or a spiritual expanding/ non local portal opening/ mental palace of manifestation as a hallucination seems to take away from the absolute serendipitous ambrosia of nirvana, which one catches fleeting glimpses... "Just nod if you can hear me
Is there anyone home?…"
"Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown
The dream is gone
I have become comfortably numb"
I dont believe much Pharmaceuticals lead to instant enlightening experiences... but I have met countless psychedelic cosmo-nauts who share in the transcendent (outside of humanity's full experience, perception or grasp) rapture (feeling of intense pleasure or joy.) And often one rates the quality of their lives, by these ebb and flow of organic Orgasmic SuperLiminal (existing above the threshold of consciousness) experiences!
What about muscimol/gaboxadol. Action is GABAAρ mediated, most would say it's effects are psychedelic(I wouldn't bc of MOA, neuro sig, and phenomenology)?
This is a debatable case certainly. Mechanism of action isn't important imo -- it's the phenomenology (measurable) and neural signature (measurable) that counts. I expect few scientists are particularly interested in doing functional neuroimaging of subjects given muscimol, but that would be the way to resolve the issue.
While I get that hallucinogen is a loaded term, especially once you get into the anticholinergic game and the alterations to the world space seem indistinguishable from consensus reality, it seems so much easier to call things by their receptor target AND their effect. I like this approach:
"Dysdelics (or salvinoids) are agonists of the kappa opioid receptor (KOR) and form a distinct class of hallucinogens, together with psychedelics (hallucinogenic 5-HT2A agonists), dissociatives (NMDAr antagonists), deliriants (antimuscarinic anticholinergics), cannabinoids (CB1/CB2 agonists) and somnatives (my term for GABAA agonists)."
So if something is a KOR agonist, but doesn't affect the world-state of the brain, it's a KOR agonist but not a hallucinogen. Once it affects the world building aspect, aka has hallucinogenic effects, it is a dysdelic. This seems to describe to the end user more of what to expect. Telling somebody who is expecting alterations to the world space similar to 5HT2A agonists that salvorin A is a psychedelic is kind of misleading. So it makes a lot of sense to call each type of hallucinogen a unique name, rather than forcing more things into the "mind manifesting" category. It also avoids things like putting MDMA into the "psychedelic" category.
I'm not sure the term "dysdelic" adds any clarity at all, since it seems to simply be a term for the specific effect of kappa agonists which most people describe as being psychedelic, and certainly calling them a distinct class of hallucinogen is even more of a misnomer, since the salvinorins don't elicit hallucinations as properly defined.
"Hallucinogenic 5HT2A agonists" is also a misnomer for the same reasons.
"Telling somebody who is expecting alterations to the world space similar to 5HT2A agonists that salvorin A is a psychedelic is kind of misleading."
*All* psychedelics, including lots of 5HT2A agonists have very different effects. Telling someone that 5-MeO-DMT is a psychedelic would be equally misleading by your reckoning then, if someone was expecting an effect similar to LSD or psilocybin.
"So it makes a lot of sense to call each type of hallucinogen a unique name, rather than forcing more things into the "mind manifesting" category"
I'd say the forcing is being done in the opposite direction, by calling drugs that don't induce hallucinations "hallucinogens". The original meaning of the term "psychedelic" as mind manifesting is largely irrelevant now, since it's merely the imperfect but broadly accepted term for this particular class of drugs, whether you consider those effects "mind manifesting" or not (I'm not sure "mind manifesting" has itself ever been properly defined anyway).
I agree that different subclasses of psychedelics ought to be defined, which can be by mechanism, but they're all under the main class of psychedelics (including MDMA).
I had no first hand experience with 5-MeO-DMT, but it's more dissociative than psychedelic by it's effects, correct? Despite being chemically and pharmacologically closer to classic psychedelics than dissociatives.
Also here come more things with complicated pharmacology like iboga and amanita that are definitely "mind manifesting".
5-MeO-DMT is most definitely psychedelic, albeit very different to LSD/psilocin/DMT/2C-B/etc.
Muscimol (from A. muscaria) would fall into the atypical (or non-classical) psychedelics (assuming it met the criteria I outlined). Ibogaine is more complicated since its 5HT2A agonism doesn't seem to be required for its effects. It is, however, a sub-micromolar kappa opioid agonist. So, again, it might be considered an atypical psychedelic, alongside salvinorin. Makes more sense to me than calling it a "dysdelic".
While I agree with you most of this nomenclature-based gatekeeping is ridiculous, I'm not sure your biological metrics for psychedelics have enough discriminant validity.
If you give SSRIs to "healthy" volunteers, acutely, we see the same changes: Decreased within-DMN rsFC (Van Wingen et al., 2014) and reduced alpha (Dumont, De Visser, Cohen, & Van Gerven, 2005). I'm sure you're aware of the criticisms surrounding Carhart-Harris et al. in their global connectivity analysis to differentiate Lexapro from psilocybin responses...so that may not be of much use either unless repeated under more rigorous settings.
One might undoubtedly argue then, clearly SSRIs can be differentiated by subjective inventories..but I would suggest that places us right back in the pornography realm. To me, the only value in having this masturbatory nomenclature exercise is to enhance descriptive validity of biological function for these substances.
I don't think alpha and DMN approach antibiotics in that regard.
You're correct, which is why we need both neuroimaging *and* subjective rating scales -- I'm agree we're not quite there yet with either in reliably discriminating between psychedelics and other psychoactives, but this is clearly (imo) the direction we should be heading and I believe we'll get there. This "this nomenclature-based gatekeeping" is indeed ridiculous and a distraction, if not an active hinderance.
I guess we could ask, given both sets of neuroimaging data and subjective rating scale data, could you differentiate between a psychedelic and any other psychoactive (given the same data)? I reckon you could, even now.
Psychedelic is about effects, not about a way to achieve those effects. And there are many ways - via 5-HT2A, via NMDA, via Kappa-Opioid, via some obscure ways (cannabis), and even via meditation/breathing practices.
As a Theological Major, and simple everlasting love for Psychedelic/ Entheogenic/ Magical - Insightful and Sacred Substances... it is easy to value the definitions of each...
When looking into the Noosphere/of Google... it initially plops me at a wiki...
"What is the meaning of the word psychedelic?
A psychedelic experience is characterized by the striking perception of aspects of one's mind previously unknown, or by the creative exuberance of the mind liberated from its ostensibly ordinary fetters."
Love that one!
En Theo Gen - In/Within - [Ancient Greek word (θεός)] Divinity - To Generate/Create... under this thought, it simply implies a spiritual experience. Transcendent and Greater then the sum of the parts.
When one views the medicine as a precious teacher/ they are well on their way to have the secrets of mysticism laid out before them... right up until the ego is dissolved into the One/ and Samadhi/Sahasrara is realized... Satori/ our sense of universal consciousness, wisdom, unity and self-knowledge are being experienced... then you descend, and cannot retain all of the realizations... for the physical body cannot contain the infinite. As you begin to reassimilate into the finite body/mind duality, you drift out of.the all One - one-electron universe / holons - interdependent coexistence - ouroboros / Star Dust to Quazars to grains of sand... the GDF family hit the essence in Truckin'
"Sometimes the lights all shinin on me; Other times I can barely see. Lately it occurs to me what a long, strange trip it's been."
"The only thing there is to say
Every silver lining's got a
Touch of grey"
"Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world"
"Nothin' shakin' on shakedown street, used to be the heart of town
Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart, you just gotta poke around
You think you've seen this town clear through (well, well, well, you can never tell)
Nothin' here that could int'rest you (well, well, well, you can never tell)
It's not because you missed out on the thing that we had to start
Maybe you had too much too fast (maybe you had too much too fast)"
Simply defining a drug as a mind altering substance, or a spiritual expanding/ non local portal opening/ mental palace of manifestation as a hallucination seems to take away from the absolute serendipitous ambrosia of nirvana, which one catches fleeting glimpses... "Just nod if you can hear me
Is there anyone home?…"
"Out of the corner of my eye
I turned to look but it was gone
I cannot put my finger on it now
The child is grown
The dream is gone
I have become comfortably numb"
I dont believe much Pharmaceuticals lead to instant enlightening experiences... but I have met countless psychedelic cosmo-nauts who share in the transcendent (outside of humanity's full experience, perception or grasp) rapture (feeling of intense pleasure or joy.) And often one rates the quality of their lives, by these ebb and flow of organic Orgasmic SuperLiminal (existing above the threshold of consciousness) experiences!
What about muscimol/gaboxadol. Action is GABAAρ mediated, most would say it's effects are psychedelic(I wouldn't bc of MOA, neuro sig, and phenomenology)?
This is a debatable case certainly. Mechanism of action isn't important imo -- it's the phenomenology (measurable) and neural signature (measurable) that counts. I expect few scientists are particularly interested in doing functional neuroimaging of subjects given muscimol, but that would be the way to resolve the issue.
While I get that hallucinogen is a loaded term, especially once you get into the anticholinergic game and the alterations to the world space seem indistinguishable from consensus reality, it seems so much easier to call things by their receptor target AND their effect. I like this approach:
"Dysdelics (or salvinoids) are agonists of the kappa opioid receptor (KOR) and form a distinct class of hallucinogens, together with psychedelics (hallucinogenic 5-HT2A agonists), dissociatives (NMDAr antagonists), deliriants (antimuscarinic anticholinergics), cannabinoids (CB1/CB2 agonists) and somnatives (my term for GABAA agonists)."
So if something is a KOR agonist, but doesn't affect the world-state of the brain, it's a KOR agonist but not a hallucinogen. Once it affects the world building aspect, aka has hallucinogenic effects, it is a dysdelic. This seems to describe to the end user more of what to expect. Telling somebody who is expecting alterations to the world space similar to 5HT2A agonists that salvorin A is a psychedelic is kind of misleading. So it makes a lot of sense to call each type of hallucinogen a unique name, rather than forcing more things into the "mind manifesting" category. It also avoids things like putting MDMA into the "psychedelic" category.
I'm not sure the term "dysdelic" adds any clarity at all, since it seems to simply be a term for the specific effect of kappa agonists which most people describe as being psychedelic, and certainly calling them a distinct class of hallucinogen is even more of a misnomer, since the salvinorins don't elicit hallucinations as properly defined.
"Hallucinogenic 5HT2A agonists" is also a misnomer for the same reasons.
"Telling somebody who is expecting alterations to the world space similar to 5HT2A agonists that salvorin A is a psychedelic is kind of misleading."
*All* psychedelics, including lots of 5HT2A agonists have very different effects. Telling someone that 5-MeO-DMT is a psychedelic would be equally misleading by your reckoning then, if someone was expecting an effect similar to LSD or psilocybin.
"So it makes a lot of sense to call each type of hallucinogen a unique name, rather than forcing more things into the "mind manifesting" category"
I'd say the forcing is being done in the opposite direction, by calling drugs that don't induce hallucinations "hallucinogens". The original meaning of the term "psychedelic" as mind manifesting is largely irrelevant now, since it's merely the imperfect but broadly accepted term for this particular class of drugs, whether you consider those effects "mind manifesting" or not (I'm not sure "mind manifesting" has itself ever been properly defined anyway).
I agree that different subclasses of psychedelics ought to be defined, which can be by mechanism, but they're all under the main class of psychedelics (including MDMA).
But I like that this is being discussed! My position certainly isn't definitive. :)
I had no first hand experience with 5-MeO-DMT, but it's more dissociative than psychedelic by it's effects, correct? Despite being chemically and pharmacologically closer to classic psychedelics than dissociatives.
Also here come more things with complicated pharmacology like iboga and amanita that are definitely "mind manifesting".
5-MeO-DMT is most definitely psychedelic, albeit very different to LSD/psilocin/DMT/2C-B/etc.
Muscimol (from A. muscaria) would fall into the atypical (or non-classical) psychedelics (assuming it met the criteria I outlined). Ibogaine is more complicated since its 5HT2A agonism doesn't seem to be required for its effects. It is, however, a sub-micromolar kappa opioid agonist. So, again, it might be considered an atypical psychedelic, alongside salvinorin. Makes more sense to me than calling it a "dysdelic".